Rev. Franklin Graham: 'I Would Break the Law'

Oh please - seriously? Did it just occur to you two that the separation of church and state was intended to protect both of them from each other, not just to protect the gavernment from becoming a theocracy? There is a line where secular law must trump religious freedom when it is for the benefit of society. Denying women access to neccessary healthcare for ignorant religious reasons is clearly over that line. When 98% of Catholic women polled are currently or have used birth control in the past, obviously the Catholic church has only one reason for making this an issue - and that reason is to wail about religious persecution and attempt to force sympathy for them out of people who don't know any better.

Future History - seriously.

"Denying women access to neccessary healthcare for ignorant religious reasons is clearly over that line."

1) Birth control is not a necessity nor is it healthy when recent research suggests the introduction of the pill coincides with the upsurge in breast cancer.

2) Religious reasons are not ignorant when it violates a tenet (that means when you profess the faith you believe in .....)

"When 98% of Catholic women polled are currently or have used birth control in the past, obviously the Catholic church has only one reason for making this an issue "

1) That poll was selective, skewed. Aside from that, it doesn't matter what "Catholic women" use. The Catholic Church tenet is against birth control by other than basal or rhythm methods. A Catholic person can cherry pick but the Church, the Religion, has always been against contraception.

2) The one reason the Catholic church has for responding to the assault by the government, is the first ammendment of the Constitution. Government will not interfere with religion. Forcing a religion to go against one of their tenets is interfering in a major way.

Birth control is not a necessity nor is it healthy when recent research suggests the introduction of the pill coincides with the upsurge in breast cancer.

A - the pill is not the only form of birth control, B - the pill is used for more reasons than just birth control, C - the medical community obviously does not have the answers to what causes breast cancer. The most obvious conclusion thus far is that your God laced into our hereditary background. Of the hundreds of origins that are suspect, heredity is number one.

That poll was selective, skewed. Aside from that, it doesn't matter what "Catholic women" use. The Catholic Church tenet is against birth control by other than basal or rhythm methods.

Ummm, let's see - they were Catholic, and they used contraception. If you want to argue that the pollsters went out and searched for the least moral Catholics to participate, then you are ridiculous. Even if the percentage were off by 20% in representing an absolutely true cross section of Catholics, the number CLEARLY shows that most Catholics in general DO NOT AGREE with the church's position on contraception. How pathetic that the Catholic church feels like they have to rule over their flock with an iron fist. I thought you conservatives were against the "nanny state".

A Catholic person can cherry pick but the Church, the Religion, has always been against contraception.

So - you're saying that all Catholic organizations have lived by this archaic ruling? Do some research - you are wrong. That is a big part of why this should not even be an argument.

The one reason the Catholic church has for responding to the assault by the government, is the first ammendment of the Constitution. Government will not interfere with religion.

There is a line, and as I stated before, this is clearly over the line. What else should we let Catholics get away with? The Bible is riddled with all sorts of insane cruelty, why not just let Catholics pick any other injustice to humanity to embrace and flaut secular law while hiding behind this shield. Why not start owning slaves again? How about openly enforcing gender inequality? The ten commandments don't say anything about nurturing your children, so why not force them to work ten hour days in a sweatshop to make money to tithe to the church?

The Catholic church also condones divorce, yet divorce is legal in this country. I dare say the "church" has and will continue to hire divorced people. Perhaps all the divorced employees have had their marriage annulled for a fee!

Religion IS discriminatory. That's why it is dying away in the developed world.

Sometimes I think it was a shame the Catholic church started saving babies, a few centuries back from being thrown away into a river, and starting orphanages. Don't you?

Why don't you ask the ones that were mercilessly raped, terrified and humiliated by their Catholic superiors? Yeah, that's right - I'm playing the Catholic clergy pederast card. Even though it seems unsportsmanlike to go there, being such a massively hideous target, I will continue to go there until the Catholic church makes the neccessary decision to excommunicate the hundreds of pedophiles that were and are under their employ. I would love to hear your justification for how raping a child is not an offense worthy of excommunication, but providing a life saving abortion for a 10 year old child impregnated with twins after being raped by her stepfather is. In my book, that position alone makes any opinion of the Catholic church completely irrelevant.

You are deflecting from the Constitutional issue.

You haven't responded to my charge that there is a line where religious freedom is no longer justified in trampling secular law. Don't pretend that the Constitution allows for religious organizations to make all their own rules. Doing so implies that Catholic priests can continue to rape children within the walls of their facilities with impunity.

Sorry about the format above - the iPad makes it difficult to format quotes vs. comments.

Responding to your charge: "there is a line where religious freedom is no longer justified in trampling secular law."

The first amendment. Secular law is trampling on religious freedom.

The tenets of the Catholic church, the rules, have been around longer than the Constitution. They don't change.

Pedophilia is not a tenet of the Catholic church, or any church. It is deflecting from the argument. It is a horrible thing. They need to watch-guard over that better in the ranks. They are to be prosecuted by law. They broke with faith as well as with the law.

They broke with faith as well as with the law.

I'll shut up about it when they back this up with some well deserved excommunications. If a doctor, an engineer, a teacher, or any other licensed professional were to be convicted, or possibly even accused, of such a heinous act, the secular world would take away their license. Why is it that the "moral authority" occupation won't make a similar concession? Until they do, why should any opinion of theirs be considered relevent? Mind you - it's not just the act of sexually abusing the children - it's the attempted cover up and enabling of such acts to continue that is so incredibly appalling. The adherents of religion should be adamant about insisting that this happen, or refuse to give another dime to the church.

#9.4 Pedophile priests have been arrested. The church did state a few years ago that they would not harbor them from prosecution. I would take a guess that this extended to excommunication, I don't know because I'm not Catholic.

You would be wrong then. It's a fact that the Catholic Church has engaged in the excommunicatiion process for many former Catholics since this scandal was exposed, but none of these excommunications were related to the sexual abuse of a child by a member of clergy, or the act of covering up such a crime. Those that are guilty of the abuse itself cannot avoid being prosecuted for their crime, but for the Catholic Church to not show a modicum of civility by officially severing their ties with these hideous criminals says volumes about them. This lack of action should be taken into account when considering lending support to them for any other issue.

So according to you all priests and nun through all the ages were and are pedophiles.

No. I did not infer that ... you know that I did not infer that, yet you chose to deflect that argument with childish waiving of the charge that the Catholic church refuses to excommunicate pedophiles, but is willing to excommunicate for far less of a crime.

Abortion, contraception, etc are still going to be allowed in the US. The issue is who is to pay for it. Not the Catholic Church or any Church, that disagrees with the practice based on tenets of their faith.

It's time they got with the program. Being tax exemp whilst sitting on an insanely enormous pile of wealth, buying up expensive real estate and erecting ridiculously ornate and hideously expensive shrines while the rest of the tax paying country starves is 100% contrary to the teachings of their own savior. Could they be any more hypocritical?